Todd Gammel

Business owners facing financial difficulties are warned to use the current crisis of uncertainty as cover for restructuring and not to wait out the storm from fuel and costs increases as recovery often takes far longer and delays can reduce the options available, Todd Gammel, partner at HLB Mann Judd Sydney, says.

Gammel says a turnaround typically takes between 12 and 18 months, even when action is taken as soon as problems start but now is as good a time as any as there is more understanding in the market and patience from external aspects like transport costs/supply issues that can be utilised to buy time and explore options.

“Financial problems are usually the result of pressure or issues building over time. Cash flow tightens, trading conditions change, lenders become more cautious and suddenly management is spending all their time just keeping the lights on.”

Once a business reaches that point, day-to-day demands such as payroll and suppliers take over, leaving little room to step back and reassess the broader strategy.

“The risk is that businesses become reactive as we can see with fuel prices/transport cost changes. Businesses are forced to focus on survival and the longer that goes on, the harder it becomes to turn things around.”

Gammel says simply waiting for conditions to improve around the current crisis could be a waste of the crisis that can provide a straightforward cover for operating changes.

“Early action gives you choices even in a crisis. If you act while there is still flexibility in the business, you can restructure properly, access funding or bring in new partners. If you leave it too late, those pathways start to close. Acting now may enable recovery activities to be in place and the business moving positively before anyone becomes aware due to the distraction of the larger issues in play”

Gammel says this is often seen in legacy business structures, which are frequently set up years earlier for tax or family reasons.

“We see businesses that are effectively boxed in by their own structure limiting external funding or investment,” Gammel says.

“For family-owned businesses, the challenge can be made worse through the generations. In some situations, funding from family assets is being used just to keep the business going, without a defined end point or strategy. Over time, that can eat away at family wealth rather than preserve it. Family jewels can be sacrificed to feed the family business.

“Changing this approach can unlock new funding or investment opportunities, but it needs to be done carefully. If the tax side isn’t managed properly, you can create new problems while trying to solve the old ones.”

Gammel says an independent perspective can be critical in those moments, particularly when decisions become complex or emotionally charged.

“You need someone who can step back, assess the situation objectively and ask questions of what the desired outcome is. That means looking at all the options, including ones that may not have been considered internally, and focusing on outcomes that are sustainable over the long term,” Gammel says.

“That can include restructuring ownership, or, in some cases, stepping away from parts of the business altogether.

“Bigger isn’t always better. A simpler, more focused business can ultimately deliver more value for the owner and a potential investor than a large, complex one that’s constantly under strain.

“We’ve seen businesses reduce their scale significantly, sometimes by more than half, by exiting contracts or divisions that were not delivering real value. What’s left is often a more profitable, more manageable business with stronger margins and a clearer strategy towards sale or investment.”

Funding also plays a central role in stabilising distressed businesses, particularly where assets exist but cash flow is constrained.

“There are situations where businesses are asset rich but cash poor,” Gammel says.

“In those cases, structured funding can bridge the gap and give the business time to execute a recovery plan but that may become more difficult as a crisis develops as confidence in the business and /or the overall market declines, so acting early can avoid these issues.”

Gammel says the businesses that recover most successfully are those that approach these situations with clarity and urgency, supported by the right advice from the outset.

“A business in going through difficulty can be a turning point to greatness. If you address issues early using a larger crisis as coverage for change and take a structured strategic approach, you can reset the business and put it on a more sustainable footing for the future before anyone notices.”

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Lindzi Caputo

Generation X are sitting on far more wealth than they realise and are in a strong position to take control of their financial future, but few are doing so strategically, according to wealth management partner at HLB Mann Judd Sydney, Lindzi Caputo.

Caputo said Gen X, often overlooked in the generational wealth debate, are entering a critical financial stage.

“Many Gen Xers are asset-rich but strategy-poor. They’ve benefited from compulsory superannuation and rising property prices, yet few have a structured plan to make that wealth work for them,” Caputo said.

“With retirement on the horizon, Gen X needs to shift from autopilot to active planning.

“For many, financial independence or early retirement could be a realistic goal, but it requires more than relying on property and superannuation. Now is the time to plan intentionally.”

Caputo said that while the family home often represents the bulk of wealth for this age group, it’s important to think beyond real estate.

“If the mortgage is less than 50 per cent of the property’s value, that’s often the tipping point where it makes sense to start looking at other investment opportunities. A more balanced portfolio with liquid assets such as shares or managed funds can provide both growth and flexibility.”

While superannuation remains an important strategy, Caputo said those in their 40s and early 50s may still be many years away from accessing it.

“Someone in their late 40s may still be 15 to 20 years from retirement, and that’s why it’s important to also consider investments that are accessible and can be actively managed outside of super,” Caputo said.

“Debt can be a powerful tool, but it needs to be managed prudently. Borrowing to invest in liquid assets can accelerate wealth creation, provided repayments are sustainable and the asset can be easily sold if needed. And ideally, that debt should be cleared before retirement.”

She says high-income earners within Gen X may also have significant free cash flow that could be put to more productive use.

“We often work with clients to set up regular monthly investment contributions. Over time, these can build substantial portfolios grow overall wealth and provide income to support family goals, such as school fees or travel,” Caputo said.

“If your goal is to generate $200,000 a year from investments, using a conservative 5 per cent return, you’d need around $4 million in investable assets. Once you reach that, work becomes a choice, not a necessity.”

Caputo also encouraged Gen X to turn their attention to inheritance and legacy planning.

“Framing inheritance discussions as conversations about legacy rather than loss helps families align their values and intentions. Structures like testamentary trusts can protect wealth and ensure it benefits future generations,” Caputo said.

“When these conversations happen in advance, with powers of attorney and enduring guardianships in place, it reduces strain on families and ensures smoother transitions. Once an inheritance is received, paying down non-deductible debt and maximising super contributions should be the first priorities.”

Caputo said while Gen X may not have had the same economic tailwinds as the Baby Boomers, many are in strong positions to retire comfortably if they plan effectively.

“With strategic thinking, diversification, and open family conversations, this generation can create a retirement that is both secure and fulfilling. But the key is to start now, because when it comes to financial independence, time and intention are everything.”

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Jonathan Philpot

HLB Mann Judd Sydney’s Managed Discretionary Account (MDA) service has outperformed the median superannuation fund over the past 12 months by four per cent, despite having no exposure to CBA and being underweight the booming US tech giants, demonstrating the strength of a diversified, actively managed approach.

Jonathan Philpot, head of wealth management at HLB Mann Judd Sydney, says since being launched just over a year ago, the MDA has delivered strong returns to clients by maintaining a diversified position across different asset classes including listed property, global infrastructure and high yield debt.

“We have maintained a tight focus on investing with the discipline to avoid overpriced investments, and focus on long-term expected returns. As a result, we have invested in a way that may seem different to the market consensus, but which has delivered outstanding results,” Mr Philpot said.

“For example, this focus has led us to have zero exposure to CBA for the whole financial year.  This is at a time when the ASX 200 increased 14 per cent during the year and CBA contributed nearly 30 per cent of this return. Our 20-stock direct share portfolio delivered an impressive 19.4 per cent for the same period, which indicates an index approach is not required to build a good quality share portfolio.

“Likewise, we had an underweight exposure to large US equities, particularly the “Magnificent 7”. The US market performed well for the year rising 13.6 per cent and those stocks were about 50 per cent of the return. However, our global exposure was ahead of respective benchmarks and importantly we had much lower volatility when the US market went through its near 20 per cent correction in March 2025.”

HLB Mann Judd’s MDA service consists of five risk-adjusted portfolios designed to meet different client needs. Each portfolio outperformed its respective benchmark in its first year.

“Our investment changes throughout the year reflected an overall need to be more defensive when share markets are approaching being fully valued,” Mr Philpot said.

“This may seem strange after a year of 10 per cent plus returns, however with the US share market having been on a strong upward trajectory since the end of the global financial crisis and the Australian share market averaging 13.3 per cent per annum over the last five years, it makes sense that these share markets are now starting to be fully valued.”

Mr Philpot says the MDA approach offers a number of benefits to clients, including the ability to act quickly which was crucial in protecting client portfolios during periods of volatility and market overvaluation.

“We’re able to implement new investment ideas quickly and efficiently, without placing an administrative burden on our clients. It means we can respond to changing conditions in real time,” Mr Philpot said.

“While many advisers are turning to Separately Managed Accounts (SMAs) and outsourcing to asset consultants, we believe in providing something more personal. Our portfolios are not an off-the-shelf model – they are directly managed by us and tailored to our clients’ long-term goals.”

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Simon James

M&A activity slowed in the 2025 financial year amid heightened geopolitical, trade, and economic uncertainty, however a rebound may be on the horizon, according to Simon James, assurance & advisory partner at HLB Mann Judd Sydney. 

In the latest HLB Mann Judd M&A report, Mr James says factors such as lower inflation, a resilient labour market, and improved market sentiment, suggest there may be a recovery in M&A activity in the next 12 months.

According to the report, the total number of deals fell to 951 in FY25, down from 1,038 in FY24 and 1,211 in FY23.  However the average transaction size increased, from $127 million in FY24 to $148 million in FY25.

“The lower deal volume in FY2025 compared to FY2024 and FY2023 suggests that investors have been exercising greater caution amid rising global economic uncertainty and softening business conditions.

“There is no doubt that this caution is still lingering amid persistent geopolitical and economic uncertainty, however our analysis suggest that value-accretive opportunities still exist in the mid-market for those willing to pursue them.

“This is underpinned by anticipated interest rate cuts following the return of inflation to RBA’s 2 to 3 per cent target range, as well as key structural drivers including Baby Boomers retirements, renewed private equity activity, and growing interest in the renewable and AI-first sectors.”

Mr James says these themes will play out over the long term.

“The Baby Boomer transition is a multi-year theme as succession planning is poised to become more important than ever.  We anticipate the future of mid-market deal activity to be driven by the ‘silver tsunami’ .

“Likewise, a backlog of portfolio exits, coupled with expected interest rate cuts and record levels of dry powder, suggests a strong rebound in private equity-led transactions.

“The disruptive potential of AI also has a role to play, prompting many business leaders to consider M&A as a means of enhancing their AI capabilities. 

“On top of this, ESG considerations are a further catalyst, with investors favouring companies with strong governance, sustainability and social impact credentials. For instance, within the materials sector, access to lithium and rare earth elements is expected to be the primary driver of M&A, given their critical importance to the energy transition,” Mr James says.

Throughout the course of FY25, deal levels trended steadily downwards, with 301 deals in Q1, 267 in Q2, 181 in Q3, and then a slight increase in Q4 to 202.

“Historically, Q2 has tended to see high deal volumes due to calendar year-end completion efforts, however this trend did not continue in FY2025, likely due to mid-quarter caution around impending tariffs and economic headwinds,” Mr James says.

“It is notable that despite the fall in overall deal numbers, the average transaction value has risen over the past three years, up to $148 million in FY25 from $127 million in FY24 and $89 million in FY23.

“The increase in average deal size is primarily due to a higher average value of deals over $1 billion in FY25. This suggests corporate confidence remains positive in Australia’s economic outlook, supported by expectations of further interest rate cuts, which could boost business valuations. It also reflects a shift in focus toward transactions with clear strategic value and long-term potential over short-term gains.”

From a sector perspective, the healthcare, information technology, materials, real estate, industrials, and energy industries each saw an increase in the average transaction valuation multiples in FY25 compared to FY24. In contrast, the consumer discretionary industry average transaction valuation multiple decreased in FY25 compared to FY24.

International deals created a premium of 17 per cent, with deals involving international entities carrying an average multiple of 9.7 compared to 8.3 for domestic transactions.

“This may reflect a strong perception of potential synergies from international buyers, particularly in terms of market entry and expanding footprints into the Asia-Pacific region,” Mr James says.

“The distribution between international and domestic transactions has remained consistent in the last three years, with just below one in three transactions being international.

“Looking ahead, Australia’s stable regulatory environment and strategic resources, together with favourable interest rates making for attractive pricing, will continue to attract foreign buyers. In particular, inbound M&A from North America and Asia is expected to grow, primarily within the energy and technology sectors.”

Data in the report shows that the share of financial buyers (including private investment firms, public investment firms, financial service investment arms, and private funds) compared to strategic buyers has declined from 67 per cent in FY24 to 12 per cent in FY25, returning to FY23 levels

“This decline may be due to a global slowdown in private equity exit activity, coupled with persistent geopolitical and economic uncertainty and elevated interest rates, and therefore, reducing the cash available to complete deals.

“Increasingly, buyers are looking to achieve scale, efficiency, and geographic expansion, making consolidation a likely continued theme in the years ahead,” Mr James says.

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Peter Bardos

Employee share schemes (ESS) are becoming an increasingly popular incentive in Australian workplaces, but both employers and employees should be aware of the significant tax implications these arrangements may carry, Peter Bardos, tax partner at HLB Mann Judd Sydney said.

Such schemes allow employees to benefit from the success of the business while for businesses, ESS can be an effective tool for staff retention and wealth creation in some circumstances. However the tax treatment varies considerably depending on the structure of the scheme, he said.

“Typically, they fall into three categories: taxed-upfront schemes, tax-deferred schemes and start-up concessions,” Mr Bardos said.

“Many employees don’t realise that the discount they receive on the shares issued from the scheme is often treated as taxable income upfront, which can create cash flow challenges.

“This is particularly relevant for standard employee share purchase plans where shares are offered below market value.”

Mr Bardos said a major risk to ESS is that many employees lack understanding of the fundamental principles, such as how the funds will be sold in the future if the shares aren’t listed on a stock exchange. Additionally, many ESS involve options instead of shares as well as loan arrangements.

“Employers will usually seek professional advice to ensure an efficient outcomes for employees, however they should seek their own independent advice to understand their personal circumstances,” Mr Bardos said.

“We have seen unfortunate cases where employees have held shares that have eventually become worthless.

“Any shares should be considered as any other investment and form part of a balanced investment approach, especially once any sale restrictions are lifted.”

Mr Bardos said some schemes qualify for deferred tax treatment, where the tax point is delayed until certain conditions are met, such as the lifting of sale restrictions. However, this deferral can lead to larger tax bills down the track if share values have appreciated significantly.

He said special tax concessions – where eligible employees can avoid having their discounted shares assessed as taxable income – can apply to unlisted Australian startups that are less than 10 years old and have a turnover of less than $50 million.

“The main benefit of the startup concession is that employees are not assessed on any discount and will usually only pay tax on a future sale.  This allows alignment of the cash benefit and tax payment as well as a lower rate of tax where the ESS is held for more than 12 months.”

The tax implications become even more complex for employees of multinational companies, where cross-border rules and foreign tax arrangements may create additional Australian tax obligations.

“Both employers and employees need to carefully consider these tax consequences when implementing or participating in share schemes,” Mr Bardos said.

“Professional advice is crucial to avoid unexpected tax bills and to ensure compliance with all relevant regulations.”

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Steve Grivas

Steve Grivas has been appointed managing partner of accountants and business advisers HLB Mann Judd Sydney, succeeding Tony Fittler who has stepped down after more than 20 years in the role.

Mr Grivas is an assurance and advisory partner, and joined the firm in 1998 after graduating with a bachelor of business (accounting and finance) from the University of Technology Sydney.

As managing partner, Mr Grivas will be responsible for driving the continued growth of the firm, setting the strategic direction, and managing the business operations.

Mr Fittler congratulated Mr Grivas on being appointed to the role.

“Steve is stepping into the leadership position at a time of major change and innovation in the accounting profession and I am looking forward to seeing the firm continue to grow and adapt under his guidance.

“Steve has a deep understanding of our business and our industry and will bring new ideas and approaches to how we do things, while at the same time maintaining our philosophy and culture of client service.”

Mr Fittler will continue to be chairman of the HLB Mann Judd Australasian Association as well as working as a senior tax partner in the Sydney firm.

Mr Grivas says there are a number of opportunities and challenges that he is looking forward to responding to.

“As a firm and as a profession, we need to keep innovating in a world that is continually changing. New developments, such as in technology and AI, present both opportunities and threats that we need to respond to in order to thrive, and there are a number of initiatives that we will be working on to build our capabilities.

“At the same time, our people remain central to our approach and we continue to focus on how to attract the right talent and enhance our expertise and knowledge, so that we can best serve our clients.

“I am stepping into big shoes – Tony has led this firm for more than 20 years, and I thank him for the significant role he has played in the ongoing success of HLB Mann Judd Sydney,” Mr Grivas says.

Mr Grivas will also continue working with a number of his assurance and advisory clients.  He specialises in financial services, funds management, freight forwarding and customs broking, real estate, and building and construction.  Mr Grivas is a member of Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand and a member of the Institute of Internal Auditors, as well as a registered company auditor and a CA business valuation specialist.

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Aidan Smith

Leading business advisory firm, HLB Mann Judd Sydney, has released its fourth annual comprehensive report on financial management in the not for profit (NFP) sector.

The report, based on a survey conducted in July and August 2024 with more than 80 NFP leaders, reveals significant economic pressures facing the sector, including rising operational costs, high turnover in finance teams, and the urgent need for technological adoption and strategic innovation.

The report highlights that 68 per cent of surveyed NFPs reported negative impacts on their financial performance due to macroeconomic factors, such as the cost-of-living crisis and inflation. Furthermore, 85 per cent identified rising operational costs as their most significant financial challenge.

Such economic pressures are compounded by an increased demand for services, emphasising the critical need for effective financial management and strategic planning, and the importance of diversifying funding sources and revisiting pricing models to ensure sustainability.

With 59 per cent of respondents citing the loss of major funding as a top financial risk, NFPs should expand income streams through corporate partnerships, new revenue-generating activities and targeted donor campaigns.

“To navigate the current economic climate, NFPs must adopt a proactive approach to financial management, focusing on diversifying funding sources and optimising pricing models,” said Aidan Smith, head of Australasian not for profit at HLB Mann Judd.

“Our findings show that organisations that strategically manage their resources and explore innovative funding options are better positioned to withstand economic uncertainties.”

Despite the clear benefits of technology and automation in enhancing efficiency and reducing costs, the report reveals that many NFPs have yet to embrace these tools fully. Only a small percentage of respondents reported using automation or artificial intelligence (AI) in their financial processes.

However, with turnover levels in finance teams remaining high and the increasing complexity of financial management, NFP leaders are urged to consider technology adoption as a vital strategy for futureproofing their organisations.

“Automation and AI offer immense potential for improving financial processes, reducing manual errors, and enhancing decision-making capabilities,” said Fiona Dixon, business transformation partner at HLB Mann Judd Sydney.

“NFP leaders who embrace these technologies will not only improve their operational efficiency but also build resilience against future challenges.”

It is important for NFPs to prioritise financial innovation and strategic planning, and HLB Mann Judd recommends investing in technology upgrades and exploring automation opportunities to support long-term sustainability.

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Mr Gardiner has over 30 years’ experience in the financial services, accounting and banking industries in Australia, Asia and the UK.  He first joined HLB Mann Judd Sydney in late 2023 in a business development capacity which has now been formalised into the new role.  Peter Gardiner’s main area of focus will be driving opportunities in the corporate advisory division as well as providing a framework for best of breed processes within the firm.

He joined HLB Mann Judd from Saltire Capital Partners where he was partner and also spent four years with Findex where he was executive managing partner – specialist services. He has also worked at EY (formerly Ernst & Young) and ANZ Corporate Bank.

Mr Fittler says Mr Gardiner’s appointment has been a significant step in the firm’s ambitious growth plans.

“Our goal over the next two years is to have 26 partners, and $50 million in revenue, by 2026.  This is a major initiative for us and Peter’s appointment forms a significant stepping stone in achieving these ambitions.

“Peter brings a breadth and depth of experience in business strategy and revenue growth, corporate development and advisory, and M&A activity, and allows us to build on the strength and reputation of HLB Mann Judd, and its focus on client service,” Mr Fittler says.

Peter Gardiner says he is looking forward to being part of the next phase of growth at HLB Mann Judd.

“I have always enjoyed a challenge and look forward to assisting in driving the evolution of a major mid-tier accounting firm, at a time when there is significant change and disruption.

“HLB Mann Judd is a stable, high-performing firm with a significant footprint in the funds management industry.”

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Bill Nussbaum

Employees working from home (WFH) need to familiarise themselves with new changes introduced by the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) on calculation methods for claiming tax deductions, according to HLB Mann Judd Sydney tax consulting director, Bill Nussbaum.

The warning comes ahead of the 31 October general deadline for the lodgement of self-prepared individual income tax returns.

Mr Nussbaum said in the wake of COVID, the ATO introduced a simplified short-cut method for claiming WFH expenses, whereby taxpayers were able to claim 0.80c per hour. However, this will not be available for the 2023 year.

“Taxpayers wishing to claim a WFH deduction can now only use the pre-existing fixed rate or actual cost methods. A lot of people won’t be aware of the changes which is concerning given the ATO has indicated work-related expenses are an area of focus this year,” he said.

The ‘fixed rate method’ has been available for a number of years, however the rate claimable has increased from 0.52c to 0.67c per hour WFH. This method takes into account the running expenses when WFH, such as home and mobile phone and internet costs, electricity, gas and consumables, such as stationery items and other office equipment.

The ‘actual cost method’ is based on the real cost incurred, and while it can result in a higher deduction, it can be more technical and cumbersome.

“Most people WFH will apply the ‘fixed rate method’ as it’s more straight-forward. However, the 0.67c rate per hour is intended to cover a lot of expenses so you can’t then claim expenses in addition to this. Some may inadvertently claim expenses twice.

“The ‘actual cost method’ calculation requires a more granular level of detail, such as cost per unit of electricity, for example. This method also requires taxpayers to be maintain records of various expenses during the year, and work-related usage,” he said.

The ATO has stated that for calculating the actual cost method, taxpayers can work out work-related expenses using records for the entire year or over a four-week period that represents their pattern of work usage, in determining a percentage of costs.

Other tax lodgement considerations include claiming on depreciation of assets in WFH duties, which can include a new desk, chair and any other equipment required, this is in addition to using the 0.67c fixed rate method. It is also available for the actual cost method.

For anyone running a business from home, there are also occupancy costs, such as rent or mortgage repayments, council rates, insurances, water and land taxes.

“However, it’s important to be aware that if you do claim occupancy expenses, there will be CGT implications when you sell the property.

“Evidently, there are a number of areas for taxpayers, particularly those WFH, that need to be assessed in the lead up to the tax deadline. People should familiarise themselves with the changes that impact them, and if they are still unsure, seek advice from a qualified tax professional,” said Mr Nussbaum.

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Bill Nussbaum

With an estimated three million people adjusting to Higher Education Contribution Scheme (HECS) indexation rate increases, many Australians living and working overseas remain unaware of their HECS repayment obligations, according to tax consulting director at HLB Mann Judd Sydney, Bill Nussbaum.

From 1 July 2023, university graduates earning more than $51,550 per year are subject to an increase in repayment thresholds, reflecting the higher rate of inflation. Australian taxpayers working abroad are also now subject to a HECS repayment, having previously been exempt prior to 1 July 2017.

“In the past, they’ve been excluded from paying the HECS debt. People naively thought they could move overseas and not worry about the debt, but now, they need to declare any foreign income earned to the ATO.

“Previously, they haven’t been required to lodge a tax return in Australia; now, the rules have changed where they are required to disclose their income for HECS purposes, even though it’s not taxable and make a HECS repayment.

“It’s a way for the government to recoup money from people living overseas. The problem is it’s not very well known and hasn’t been widely communicated. It’s a sleeping giant,” he said.

Taxpayers who have a HECS debt and plan to live and work overseas are required to update their contact details and submit an overseas travel notification within seven days of leaving Australia (if you have an intention to reside overseas for 183 days or more in any 12 months), and lodge their worldwide income or a non-lodgement advice.

Mr Nussbaum has seen an increasing number of clients – largely the parents of university graduates and students – seek advice on how best to manage the increased indexation rates, particularly given broader cost of living pressures. The indexation rate increased from 3.9 per cent last year to 7.1 per cent, representing a 12-fold increase since 2021.

“Parents might think they would prefer their children owe them money rather than the government, but a lot of parents don’t understand the system very well.

“Over the last few years, it hasn’t been front of mind for most but with the increased rates coming into effect, people had to consider paying some of it off to reduce the impact of the new 7.1 per cent rate,” he said.

Mr Nussbaum said there remains confusion for many on the application of indexation rates, particularly given that historical low rates meant many were oblivious to the impact of the debt.

The indexing is applied on 1 June and does not account for withholding amounts paid throughout the year. For example, withholding amounts relating to HECS throughout 1 July 2022 – 1 June 2023 will not reduce the balance prior to indexing on 1 June 2023 as these repayments are captured on lodging an FY2023 tax return.

“There will likely be another increase next year, so people will need to assess their individual circumstances and determine whether they want to pay the debt down in combatting the increased indexation or prefer money in their account. It is really dependent on their working and financial situation,” he said.

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